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Old 02-01-2013, 06:38 PM   #41
Witchdoctor
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yea it has everything to do with it 1core 1thread on 3770K

Here is a teammates recent SPI run

11th fast SPI evar ......... This dude is easily one of the top guys on the planet

http://hwbot.org/submission/2324248_

before this thread is done we will all know what is the best case for this unit, will it do what i want, maybe, one thing we already know stock I am 20C below ambient water at 21C testing conditions

this is a great temp in the Northeast as most keep there house around 21C winter and summer , at least i do and being in the HVAC industy most of my customers do as well. Every dergree gained here is iceing on the cake .... By no means am I trying to get it to bench competetive, goal here is to simply crush ambient water all with in the confines of a case, no hoses sticking out the window or anything like that, so we will see where this takes us, going to the hardware store tommorow, may get lucky and find what i need instead of having to wait for shipping, just some 1/4" x 1/2" barbs and I'm in

if you hit the wall PM me and I will hit you with some roick soilid settings if you have a chip that can do it, Hitting MC tommorow as well to bpick up a 2500K for a client build so if they have any Malasians while I am there I will be snagging at least 2 as they scale with cold
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Old 02-01-2013, 07:31 PM   #42
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I was looking at Splave's subs before admiring that Z77 AsRock board he's got. Although I prefer Asus over anything else, that board looks like it competes very well!! Not sure I can break my Asus/DFI habbit though. Nothing but the best of luck with their boards in the past 6 years or so.
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Old 02-01-2013, 07:56 PM   #43
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yea Nick gave him and Rom one at the World championship.
They both say that are insane boards, easily one of the strongest z77 boards availible. plus 150 dollars cheaper than a full ATX board that can compete on that level, not going to getb there on an EVo or Pro board that is for sure, they simply do not have the power train to do it. Gene is a good alternative ofr 2 bills. If I didn't have a Gene I snag one up.

For the upcoming build I am doing thinking Hasswell or IB-E set up, if I have the patiance .............. see the Titan yet ? could be availible as soon as the end of this month, rumored at $ 900.00 prolly get released at $ 799.99
They say it lands inbetween a 680 and a 690 but only one core and it is clocked lower that the 680 in the 700's . but specultation. Nero has a thread ovwer at OCA on it, I linked what I could find on it
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Old 02-01-2013, 08:18 PM   #44
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The pricing is crazy. I don't buy new high end stuff. My kids (3) get to come first! The itch for VGA benching with a better processor is what I'm really after. Been doing cpu's for a while and need a change!

Right now, I've been perfectly happy with a liquid cooled GTX480. Benches over 900 on the crappy PCB. I'll probably do this card and similar in the price range and below for a while considering the Intel hardware will set me back a few more $$ than just going out and buying an FX chip. I need returns!
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Old 02-01-2013, 08:44 PM   #45
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AMD is a lot of fun I am sure, but if big numbers are what you seek Intel is the only path to compete at a high level. I am out of the game for a while as I was frustrated with my chip. So I decided to do this and build something crazy and had this Boreas sitting in a box for the past year. I do not have the budget to compete at a real high level either. Binning chips is not for the faint of heart and those of us on a limited budget, forget about it. Crio sold his golden 6.9+ chip for 800 bucks ........

Probably still cheaper than binning 50 of them though.

Like I said, if I stumbbel on a Malaision I will snag it up and freeze it in hope the chip gods shine on me ..........
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Old 02-01-2013, 09:14 PM   #46
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I've been fortunate enough to have a couple of smiles from the chip gods myself. Maybe not #1 or anything, but I still hold onto a 6400+ that's been at 4.1ghz. I just never got a validation over 4063mhz.

Now I did have a run in with a 2500K for a bit on a mid range Giga board. That one easily saw 5ghz, benched it at 5.2ghz and had to shut down cores to go past 5.3ghz on standard ol' liquid cooling. I sold it here to Big-E whom has been pretty satisified with the chip so far running a decent low voltage around 4.6ghz if memory serves me correctly. For some reason, I didn't see any real gains over Phenom II quad core probably because of the lack of hyper threading. That seems to make a real big impact for the PCMark and 3Dmarks. other than that, it games with similar frame rates. At least with the 6870's I was running at the time.

But back to your TECs.... You'll might consider sealing up the system and run the freezing temps so that you can hit that ambient at load goal. You should be around or below freezing at idle, coolant probably around -15 give or take.

Unless you get real fancy with controlling those TECs, the above may be the only way to go! TECs require a certain amount of pressure from the heat sinks contact surface as well. Around 30 inch pounds of pressure. I do finger tight and then quarter turn with a wrench or screw driver given the mounting application. This kind of stuff makes a huge impact in cooling with TECs. Please keep it in mind. If your noit tight enough, cooling will be less cause the TEC will run hotter. A hot tec cannot cool anything. That's why out of 12 TECs on 12v that little air cooler can handle it (hardly). BUT because they are so low end, even water cooling them might not do it. Each one is seemingly good for only 10w roughly....
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Old 02-01-2013, 09:45 PM   #47
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put a 5.7GHz 2500K in my sons rig and he doesn't even know it ......
Did it with a TT FRIO ..

Ye I hear what you are saying, I think running that low on idol I woul condense, I need to be right above that at idol, this is going to be a balancing act. This rig will not be set up for condensation. What I have to overcome more than anything are the wicked swings from idol to load

in my testing you can see I am hang around 5 C then burst to 65C and holds steady there. At idol I am getting condensation, but just a littl bit, if I could raise idol to sy 8 to 12C and get it to swing just 30C , even 40 that would only be 40C to 50C under load with 1.408 core. If I can do that I think I can swing 5Ghz 24/7 stable & with an Ivy chip that is doing something, prolly run a Sandy at 5.3 to 5.4 24/7 depending on how good of chip
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Old 02-01-2013, 10:12 PM   #48
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I forget that those Intels can run much hotter. I see 65c, I'm going to shut down the PC and evaluate my cooling!!

Uhg that 77w has gotta be wrong in that Cpu-z WitchD. I'm thinking your running roughly that same as the TECs put out when you load that bad boy. At idle that cpu may only be 77w maybe even less considering the temps and slight condensation your getting.

Lets talk about that controller and the firmware. The Firmware needs to be altered for better control of the TECs. I remember reading they stop pumping when the cold loop temp hits only 30f just below freezing. Well that's the only way to keep a Cpu just above freezing actually. If you could get that to 33-35f, I think that would be a good start to get a little warmer at idle.

Uhg. 5ghz eh? Don't think it's gonna happen with the current set up. In my minds eye, your 65c is already too hot for the clock speed.

Now you've had this thing a year. You'll probably not get a lot of money for it cause it's not sought after........On that note

I vote complete strip and mod. The air cooling has to go.
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Old 02-02-2013, 04:32 AM   #49
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5 Ghz will happen even if I have to get out and push ...........

This is just testing, this CPU is not going to be the one in the build. this is just a test bed, Hasswell, SB-E or IB-E will be the final platform.

Your right if I could get it to kick out at 33F to 35F I believe my condensation problems would be over.

As I stated earlier a rad may bring the desired effect, raisng idols and conrolling loads better. I am not going to give up on this baby until the fat lady siings and testing this in as many different configurations as possible. I think it is a matter of the right combo or res volume, pump, block and rads. Right now I have D5's slated to push the loops and I can use anywhere from 120.1 to 120.6 and anything in between. The testing will tell the story. if it can't do it then I will have to look to alternative, we willl see if your right

I will have to do some reserch and see what kinda of wattage these put out at said voltages
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Old 02-02-2013, 12:26 PM   #50
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Fingers are crossed! it will be a good learning experience.

If you have extra water blocks laying around, try them. Use the block that can remove heat the best from that Cpu. Usually more copper the better! The water block ultimately decides how fast you can remove heat from that Cpu or add chilling (a form of heat). More mass the better imo.

Well adding a bunch of rads..... might as well remove the chiller. Your adding BTU to the loop adding rads, BUT that might remove the same amount of heat as the peltier. Now that your adding liquid and more material to cool off, the chiller is worthless. Only because it can only cool x far compared to ambient.

SO TEC 12715......
Difference Max △Tmax 70

That's not an easy number to break down. If that peltier is runnning over 70c, you heat on both sides.

If your cold side water loop is in the 50c range (the liquid) forget about the TECs. Your making more heat because the TECs are warm on both sides. Hence the suggestion for two loops.

You can do most of this testing by way of math if you really needed to.

Additional Comment:

A little extra info for you. Just to give you an idea of what I'm talking about removing heat but creating heat and the dissipation of it quickly.

Quote:
eligray 4 years ago
don't rate this a 1 star because of your ignorance. It is for systems with 2 watercooling loops. 1 just goes through the hot side of this block, which is essentially 2 waterblocks with a peltier in between, so about 2 units of heat are added to the hot loop for every 1 watt taken out of the cold loop. It uses the peltier effect. google it. This has the ability to take the secondary loop below ambient temperature if load is below the qmax of his peltier. this deserves 5 stars no doubt, very nice.

Last edited by ShrimpBrime : 02-02-2013 at 12:26 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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Old 02-02-2013, 02:39 PM   #51
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I suck at math, that is why I am doing all this testing, when I am done it will be conclusive, if putting nothing in the loop is the best way that will be how I fly. Like I said I would like to add to idol temps where it is a no brainer that a rad or res would do. The question is will they control the swing, well I will find out ....

In the back of my head though I still think your first sugggestion of using the two blocks to cool and twop to remove heat may be the best rought, I am hopeful I can get the desired temps with the unit in tact though
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Old 02-02-2013, 05:25 PM   #52
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Well with the current configuration, what clock speed and voltage CAN you use to make the achievement now without modifications?
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Old 02-05-2013, 08:34 PM   #53
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Out of curiosity, if you chill a liquid loop to a TEC will the TEC adjust downward in the same temperature span as say running an air unit over it?

To clarify I mean say the hot side is 50C and the cold side is 0C and you chill the hot side to 0C will the cold side be -50C?

I really havent enough experience with this tech and am curious if they have sweet spots or are just a generic with flaws temp range.
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Old 02-06-2013, 02:38 AM   #54
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TBH I do not know, Shrimp has some experience with these.

I am testing different scenarios right now with it being air coupled. Possible if I do not get desired results I will use water to cool them.

If you have read through the thread you can see though I do not want to get so cold I am condensing as I am using this in a 24/7 ride

My best advice if you need -50C is to use a single stage, not sure if these TEC's are up for all that.

Last edited by Witchdoctor : 02-12-2013 at 02:03 PM.
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Old 02-07-2013, 08:53 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ORL View Post
Out of curiosity, if you chill a liquid loop to a TEC will the TEC adjust downward in the same temperature span as say running an air unit over it?

To clarify I mean say the hot side is 50C and the cold side is 0C and you chill the hot side to 0C will the cold side be -50C?

I really havent enough experience with this tech and am curious if they have sweet spots or are just a generic with flaws temp range.
-50c may be possible with a large TEC often called cold plate TECs. Often ranging in inches vs mm in sizes you can get some really cold action going on.

The difference really depends on the TEC. They are all different specs and ranges of temperature out put operating temp and voltage range.

AMPs make a difference as well. If you can run 15v, you can get away with less AMPer. If your using less volts, you should apply more AMPer.

The power input will make a serious impact on how the TEC operates.

As far as cooling goes with TECs..... Your creating a load to chill a load. Generally speaking a TEC's Cold thermal output capability should be twice that of the heat source being cooled. I'd say 3x the thermal chilling would be a sweet route to go.

Now when you look at the AIO TEC water coolers, they don't succeed at all. You can't cool a TEC and another heat source on the same loop no matter how well regulated. Eventually the Cpu will heat soak the loop.

2 loops and you can add all the chilling you desire. 2, 4, 6, 100 TECs if you wanted.

From what I gathered playing with this stuff is that any TEC on a chiller loop with the hot side in access of 45-50c will not produce enough chilling to a loop unless there is a large number of TECs. Low wattage TECs work best for this type of thing but....

There is a sweet spot. Picking which TEC to combine with others to make x amount of chilling and x amount of heat.

50w TECs are not to bad to keep cool even on air. You have 50c liquid, 50c hot side and no chilling is happening. If there's 42c water and 50c hot side, there is probably less than half a unit of heat being removed from the loop with one TEC.

FLAW - Uses too much energy and space to accomplish what a bucket of Ice Water could do.....

Last edited by ShrimpBrime : 02-07-2013 at 11:16 PM.
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Old 02-11-2013, 04:41 PM   #56
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Here it is, the good bad and the ugly ....

Adding a rad to this system turned out to be an epic fail. Adding the ambient to the loop did raise the idol temps to a comfortable level that would in fact never condense.
However the Boreas unit simply does not have to capacity to cool the added heat that is added to the loop

Ambient = 20C

1.408v 4889MHZ (75) (79) (74) (67) = 73.75C







Had a lot of fun and was able to bring pretty strong results being
the test conditions were controlled as close as I possibly could to obtain viable results

Here is a table showing all the results from the test in one place



While it is undisputable this unit does have limited capacity, It is also undisputable that it is crushing ambient water to the tune of 15C, in those terms this unit is nothing less than impressive as all of us have played with water and fought over a few degree's sometime or other. So while I was Hoping for a 20C to 25C advantage over ambient water I find it hard to be disappointed with the results

Unfortunatly I ahd a problem with the demensions of the unit and it does not quite fit into the space I had hoped.


I will continue testing useing 2 tec's and two water blocks to disapate heat and see what type of performance can be gained or lost at half the capacity but water heat disapation as opposed to air
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Old 02-11-2013, 05:54 PM   #57
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I Like this project a lot.

Also, more pictures. This is friggin cool.



One more comment! I am extremely surprised to see how well this performed with the low speed fans next to the high speed high CFM fans, I really expected more of a gap.

Last edited by ORL : 02-11-2013 at 05:55 PM. Reason: Edited out the dummy
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Old 02-12-2013, 10:28 AM   #58
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Witchdoctor, thanks for all the work. Great write-up and pics. It was fun to watch you walk the tight-rope on the edge of sub-ambient. Maybe load temps with the Boreas were "epic fail" but the thread is "epic great". Nice job.
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Old 02-12-2013, 01:05 PM   #59
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Thanks Music & ORL,

Not a complete fail, the Boreas does 15C better than ambient water

The rad is total fail though and me messing up my demesional stuff is a real drag, but you will soon see the build log of this for now ambient water system.

@ Shrimp

Total clocks to be acheived with this unit is there reallly is no achevment that can be known.
Here are the parameters that will determin this in no particular order

1. Chip Quality My Costa is not the best of the best, but I would say average

2. Platform - This testing is aimed possibly at a platform that has yet to be released On the current platform I am testing with the chip I have in hand. it can bench at 5ghz with the new BIOS. 24/7 clocks did not put any time into it as I was looking for temps at a said ambient and valotage
Guessing I could do 4.8 all day long and twice on Sundays with some time put into it and not break 61C ... possibly under 60C with some tweaking to lower core voltage for said speeds

3. Ambient room temp it is operating under For me this would be around 21 C as I keep my house the same temp all year round, just change it from heat to cool as I live in PA .... The Amish Country

4. Amount of noise you are willing to live with as test show a full 2C using 100+ CFM fans

5. case airflow. Case temp will swing the operational perameters of ambient when installed as purposed

Last edited by Witchdoctor : 02-12-2013 at 02:15 PM.
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Old 02-12-2013, 04:44 PM   #60
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Your doing good. My Chip is lucky past 4.8ghz to be what we could consider Prime or OCCT stable.

There's a lot of load on them Techs. Remove water and material for better load temps

additional comment:

Have you done any testing with HT shut off?? Curious about the temps as a quad.

Last edited by ShrimpBrime : 02-12-2013 at 05:33 PM.
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