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Old 06-06-2012, 02:30 PM   #21
technogiant
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That's great news Orthello, there's nothing worse than having something buzzing around in your head and not being able to get on with it.

I've just been reading the post here:-

http://forums.extremeoverclocking.co...d.php?t=133465

An old post but kind of proof of concept that the chillbox idea does work without condensation.....which is kind of reassuring as I've just spent another 20 on insulation paneling and about to buy 100 of acrylic sheet.

I think we've already come up with some pretty good ideas between us all and should be able to make a good job on these chillboxes.
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Old 06-06-2012, 04:12 PM   #22
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Theres so much reading here , i found this site by searching the web for like minded individuals eg extreme individuals lol, hopefully find some time to go through the threads this weekend.

Years ago , a long time ago i built some neat coolers, one used 4 peltiers on a custom waterblock and chilled liquid (via ice packs - 50 litre resoiver) i got a celeron 400 to 720 mhz at the time, that held the cpu at about -2c under load. About 6 yrs ago i converted a dehumidifier to a water chiller, it held a amd duron at below zero at the time (-18c liquid) . My problem was running long term at those temps. I got about 6 months out of one insulation attempt and i thought i made a pretty good job of it. I got a bit fustrated with insulating things plus the dehumidifer started to become less and less effective as the heatloads jumped up and up over the years. Hence my current watercooler is just ambient air cooled but the radiators are outside and atm its 4-5c at night so temps are quite nice for ambient cooled water.

I'm hoping this air tight chillbox idea is a reliable long term solution for going subzero which also can be reused eg easier to change hardware, hence the gasket.
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Old 06-07-2012, 01:11 AM   #23
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You've got a head start on me then, this is my first attempt at anything other than air cooling.

I've been wanting to do a cooled system for some time and been knocking ideas around in my head.

I of course knew about condensation problems but didn't want to get into condensation proofing the motherboard, my diy skills aren't the best and I would probably not do a good enough job and kill the mobo.

So I was considering other ways, mineral oil is one but you still have to seal the board.

So I thought up this sealed chillbox idea as thinking it out logically it should not cause condensation.

I came here to run the idea by these guys who are obviously the top crew at this sort of thing....especially Drew....only to find it's already been done and I've just reinvented the wheel....lol

I've been putting some thought to the lid seals and closing method....this is an obvious difficulty and weak point, I'm going to make it with a triple seal and use ratchet tie down straps to keep it tight down.

Also going to use desiccant sachets in there to cut down start up problems when the moisture in the enclosure is condensing out, obviously the less moisture in there at the start the better.

I want to make a proper job of this now I know it works. It will be my enclosure going forward for many years to come.

Last edited by technogiant; 06-07-2012 at 01:26 AM.
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Old 06-07-2012, 03:17 AM   #24
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Thats why i'm here too to get advice from the guys that have had the experience, Drew and the others. Reinventing the wheel is not a bad thing, i think A/Cs are more powerfull now than a while ago so the results could be even better than back then.

Been thinking today a lot on the cables. I'm more worried about the cables than the lid / gasket. I'm sure i can make a good gasket , the cables are giving me a headache. Eg the cables need to be rather rigid for a period before the chamber otherwise they will possibly move and possibly cause an air leak later down the track. The ATX cable is the worst problem , seperating the cables into a straight line layer would be ideal to get the air gaps out of it possibly.

Part of me says put everthing but liquid pipes through the same opening that way the chamber is less compromised by only having 2-3 holes that have to be air tight.

I have some neoprene here, closed cell foam, that is air tight and its a insulating material i might experiment wrapping cables in that. It could be used like a sandwich top and bottom to cover the cabling. Then just seal the join with silicon or the liquid electrical tape.

Yeah im also thinking the desiccant sachets are a must just as insurance for the initial moisture in the chamber.

So many ideas ! can't wait to get started.
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Old 06-07-2012, 01:41 PM   #25
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Personally I think separating the atx cable into single strand would be a difficult job and would result the the cable length being shortened because of the spread out. (don't know if that would matter...depends on layout)

I will probably glue that into a soild block and seal that individually.

To reinforce that and the larger cables like usb dvi and lan cables...how to describe this....I will use two discs of acrylic sheet on the outside. Each disc would have a central hole opening to the edge of the disc as a slot...a bit like a key hole.

I would place the first one on with lots of silicone under it around the cable and in the slot. The second disc would then be put on with the slot going in the opposite direction and again thoroughly siliconed underneath and around the cable and in the slot. This could be repeated several times to add more support if required.



Finer cables like those running to the power on and reset switches I'll just put through a hole and then bend them to run over the surface of the case for a few inches and put an acrylic plate siliconed over the cable and the hole.

Think this would be more durable than just relying on a few millimeters of silicone as it passes through the outer case.

There's many possibilities, your neoprene idea sounds a goer.....its all something that needs experimenting...don't think there is a blue print for this ...lol

Last edited by technogiant; 06-07-2012 at 02:23 PM.
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Old 06-07-2012, 05:43 PM   #26
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Just been working out a shopping list today and doing some more planning.

One issue i've been thinking about is how to set up the water flow. Because my chiller will cool water then through to GPU -> GPU -> CPU and then to radiator to cool the chamber then back to chiller. What i can't do with that loop is get the radiator to do the pre chilling of the chamber. Eg in the above the chilled liquid will flow through the water blocks first then to the radiator (which is my chamber cooler) so everything is getting cooled at the same time.

Been thinking about it , one is it going to be necessary to pre chill the chamber on turn on, eg air temps should drop with the block temps pretty fast ? If dry air is in the chamber and dissectants are in there and its air tight will there be much moisture any way ?

If its neccessary to prechill the chamber then i can put two valves just before the chamber to control if the GPUs - CPU get flow or not. Its a bit more complex piping wise but if it needs the pre chill then thats one way to do it. I thought about dual loops from the chiller but theres too much cooling loss potential and extra pump loading in that method.

I guess its a hard one to know , i feel safer with the prechill , then you know the moisture (if much) is frosting up at the radiator.

Additional Comment:

Been thinking about the valves, one Y valve outside , one Y joiner inside would cover the piping aspect. Just one more pipe entry to the Chamber. Not as bigger deal as i thought originally.

Additional Comment:

TG just got some good news ..

Just spoke to the acrylic people here, if i provide the plan they will build the chamber complete with holes for cables laser cut , with Gasket, ex 6mm acrylic with 12mm thick gasket lid for approx $180-$200 nzd. Thats about $150 usd. I doubt i could even buy the acrylic here for that, let alone the labour involved. I think i will go this route as they built the holding shell for my current water cooler and made an excellent job of it. I am going to use it for years to come so its an investment in that sense.

Initially they thought the acrylic would not take the -15c temperatures (estimated) but after checking they are confident it will.

Time to draw up the plan this weekend !

Last edited by Orthello77; 06-07-2012 at 05:43 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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Old 06-07-2012, 09:46 PM   #27
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Wow that's a good deal on the chamber, the acrylic alone is costing me 100.....plus I'll have to build and seal it.

As regards your water loop, obviously I don't know but I would personally be happier prechilling the chamber without the blocks being in the loop.

Regardless of desiccant there is always going to be some water vapor in the chamber and that will condense out on prechill.....you want that to be on your rad not your water blocks.

I would have a similar problem if I directly link my air coolers to the ac rad. One way I thought around it would be to start the pc on a standard non overclocked setting just before you start the chiller running....that would put some heat into the blocks and keep them warmer than the rad....then once prechill is done reboot to your overclocked profile.....bit of a mess around but it would be the only option for me if i directly link my coolers.

Last edited by technogiant; 06-07-2012 at 10:32 PM.
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Old 06-09-2012, 01:26 AM   #28
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Chillboxes have been around for some time now and are a proven cooling solution. It's still very interesting to see how each person constructs theirs. Here's another really nice chillbox built by my old friend Shyfty. http://forums.extremeoverclocking.co...d.php?t=196607

Sealing the wires and cables:
I just used seal string to seal all the cables and wires. It's very soft and sticky, resists extreme temps and does not harden. I recommend just making a long notch.. wide enough to fit the largest connector and long enough to accomodate all the wires. Make the notch then put a tack layer of seal string, run the all the wire through and separate them the best you can. Pull back any braiding on the psu wires. Press the wires into the seal string to hold them in place. Then fill the rest of the notch and your done.

Switches:
Obviously run the power and reset switches. You should also provide an easy way to reset the cmos. Easy enough on mobo's with jumpers. Most of the newer mobo's have a botton to press. No need to wait for the box to warm up and then compromise the seal each time. You can make a small 3-6mm hole in the box and use a stick to press it. That little bit of leak for a few seconds won't hurt anything. Use a small rubber plug or srew to seal it. I've actually had the inspection window off mine several times at -20c to change gpu's and ram and never had any issues. I don't recommend that part though lol. I always opened and aired/dried it after each use. I did that through the inspection window, basically just put a fan blowing into it overnight. You guys with well sealed boxes will still need to do that. You'll know when it's time by the amount of frost on the evap. That might be once a week, month or day.. depends how well sealed it is.

I see you have the box constructiuon figured out. Just keep in mind that polystyrene absorbs moisture so make sure it's covered or has a seal coat. You can use MDF for the outer shell if the inner shell is sealed. Maybe use a polyurethan varnish or enamel paint on the MDF to help seal it up some.


Orthello77:
You'll definitely want to prechill the chamber.

Two ways of doing this:
1. Dual pumps.. one for the radiator and one for the blocks.
2. Single pump with a 3 way diverter valve. You can also use two regular valves. One valve controls flow to the waterblocks. The other valve provides an alternate return path back to the reservor for the radiator when in bypass mode.

Looking forward to your build. Are you going to be staring a thread soon?
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Old 06-09-2012, 03:24 AM   #29
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Hey Drew :-)

Thanks for the idea with the seal string , i might get some and have a play.

I had an idea using silicon, basically i would roll the wires in silicon seperately or at least coat every wire seperately even the atx ones i would knead with silicon individually , then i would pull all wires in tight using zip ties , this should squeeze out silicon in every direction and hopefully get rid of any air gaps between wires. Once the wires are a solid round cable (combined in the sense) then it should be quite easy to make sure the gap is air tight. I have an old ATX psu here i might trial with.

Currently in the design i have 4x20 mm holes through the chamber for piping (two valves need to be outside hence the 4 holes) . 1 x 40x22 hole for VGA , 6 x usb extenders, sound . 1 x 60 x18 hole for the ATX / PCIE / sata cables and mobo jumpers. So 6 holes into the chamber in total. Due to cabling i cannot put the VGA / Power cables together , my PSU just won't stretch that far in cable length.

Thanks for the link, i've been planning the enclosure pretty much all day and think i am close now. I even grabbed SketchUp and blundered along until i had a 3d drawing of it all just to make sure the dimensions were all good. I will use two regular valves to control flow to the radiator / water blocks as i do want the pre chill. One thing i have about 50mm of clearance from the fans to the wall of the chamber (Radiator (GTX 360 , one of the four i have in the current cooler ) -> Fans (pulling towards wall) -> 50mm air gap -> Wall of enclosure, theres clearance of about 25-30mm all around the radiator , i don't want to make the enclosure too big for obvious reasons but will that be enough clearance for the air to circulate ? I have picked some ultra quite fans off frozencpu that pull 57 cfm at 20 dcb. So i think i will have around 170 cfm if run at full.

Yeah i will start a thread soon, i have nothing to show yet, thought i would start with a few pics. Finally got word on the AC unit today - should be here by end of next week , when it gets here i will take a lot of photos so you can let me know what you think.

Hope i'm not invading TGs thread too much till then !
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Old 06-09-2012, 11:25 AM   #30
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You're not invading my thread at all Orthello.....glad of the discussion and dialog, but I imagine you'd want to start you own once you get your hardware....I'm sure your workmanship will only put mine to shame anyways...lol

Glad to see your keeping a watchful eye on us Drew.....I think we need guidance...lol

Additional Comment:

I've finished work for the next few days so hopefully will be able to start on the chill box shortly, I'm going to take a steady approach and only order stuff as I need it and I'm sure of what I want.

Additional Comment:

Hey Orthello your obviously more into water cooling than me so not trying to teach granny and all that but do you mean the black ice gtx 360 20 fin per inch?

It's just that I researched that one a little before I bought it and while it performs
great at high cfm's it's not so good at lower ones, its designed to give unmatched performance at high cfm.

Having said that if your directly water cooling your cpu and gpu from the chiller reservoir and just using the rad for cooling the chill box air then I'm sure it would eat that task regardless of cfm airflow.

Last edited by technogiant; 06-09-2012 at 11:52 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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Old 06-09-2012, 06:37 PM   #31
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Yeah i have had some thoughts on weither its the best radiator for the job seen as its a low CFM environment. Have a look here http://skinneelabs.com/hwlabs-gtx-36...-supplement/3/ , have a read under the simple comparison bit. It seems its still a great radiator at lower RPMs compared to other radiators. The denser fin arrangement should help trying to catch the moisture i would think too. I really would like to use it just from the cost saving point of view. I am going to get 3 new fans for it, Noisebuster 58 CFM ultra quiets, 20 db. So hopefully it wont make a lot of noise either.

I should have the A/C by end of the coming week. I want to get the plan for the chamber to the acrylic people this monday so they can start i have spend most of the weekend on it. Hopefully have something to show soon.

Additional Comment:

What a mission ! Just finished my design of the chilling chamber, overall chamber dimensions 610 x 510 x 220. Its going to lie flat , gasket at top, eg 220mm is the height. 28mm closed cell foam insulation inside as pading / insulation. Gasket won't have insulation on the inside but will make a layer i can put over the top so its insulated when i'm not viewing. The sketchup program helped a lot for getting all the measurements right place and measuring clearances.

looking forward to some more pics TG ! have you had a chance to work on you enclosure yet ?

Last edited by Orthello77; 06-09-2012 at 06:37 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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Old 06-10-2012, 12:49 AM   #32
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I looked at that link, and your right the rad does perform well even at lower rpm's. It will certainly do what you require of it, and good thought about the fins catching the condensation too....actually probably the best choice when you think further.

Wish I could do designs like you obviously can, I cant draw to save my life.
I just keep it all in my head, trouble is it's so much detail it races around your mind and does your head in...lol

I'm going to make the internal insulation chamber today. Once I've done that and I'm happy and know the exact completed dimensions I'll order my acrylic.

Going to play around with my psu cables as well today to finalize how I'm going to seal those.
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Old 06-10-2012, 01:18 AM   #33
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Well i cant draw well either, thats why i downloaded that sketchup , i typed "simple 3d drawing program" in google and thats what came up lol, i wanted to be able to measure everything and i must admit it took a good 1-2 hrs to start to know what i was doing in it but i think its a really helpfull tool. I think i will use it for any design work i do from now on, you can just measure everything from point to point , i actually caught a couple of mistakes i would have made otherwise.

Can we send files though PM ? if so i'll send you the file to open with sketchup (its free) and have a look at the design.

You right about so many details, theres goals and then trade offs you have to make , eg i didn't want much air in my chilling chamber , the less the better, so its quite compact , that means not much space for cable routing etc. Those dimensions arnt even the usable space as theres 28mm of insulation on all sides bar the gasket. Pipe positioning gave me a lot of headaches as i didn't want any elbows to reduce flow so that made it a bit more tricky.

Look forward to seeing your progress !
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Old 06-10-2012, 01:32 AM   #34
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Just installed sketchup.....see if you can pm me the file.
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Old 06-10-2012, 02:01 AM   #35
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TG can't send a file through PM so if you send me your email via PM i can send you the file.
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Old 06-10-2012, 10:25 AM   #36
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Got your plans Orthello, seems a tidy layout.

One thing I thought may be an improvement if you are concerned to keep it as small as possible and I know you were concerned about your fan clearance restricting the air flow.

On the side where the vga cable leaves the case you need to have some space firstly because of the connectors size and secondly you need to leave some room for a bend or slack cable so you can plug and unplug it without forcing the cable out of the case seal.

So you will need a few perhaps 4 or 5 inches of space there. To further make use of that space you could move your pipe inlets to that side which would allow you to move your rad to the side where your pipe inlets were originally.

So you would lose most of the back section of the box about 20cm, having done that you could afford to widen it a little if you needed more fan clearance.

Last edited by technogiant; 06-10-2012 at 12:35 PM.
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Old 06-10-2012, 02:00 PM   #37
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TG , interesting thought mate one that i never considered so just goes to show - another set of eyes !

I played around with it in sketup a bit, but i think overall it wouldn't net any significant space savings. Reason is the radiator takes up 450mm with air gap in width meaning if orientated to the top where pipe inlets currently are then that would free up about 100mm in length only from where it came from but it would need an extra 50mm in height to get proper air gap in , and most likely another 30-40mm in length out the back to get the cables not interfering with pipes (I realise that the cables could actually route around the pipes but i'm not so keen on the look of that).

Hence one dimension would shrink , the other two would need to grow some. Pipe routing would suffer somewhat outside however due to not having a bending radius available as i want the outside parimeter of the chiller no larger that the chill box itself. (its twice as wide and just as long as my case now!).

I've just got to see what the acrylic people think now , it should be pretty standard for them. I want them to build up around the pipe holes / cable holes two - three layers of acrylic (glued together) so essentially there is 20mm atleast of thickness to those holes. That should give me a good sealing service.
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Old 06-10-2012, 02:22 PM   #38
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Yeah it was just a thought, if it's not going to enable much space saving or better air flow then your original plan would be a lot neater.
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Old 06-10-2012, 04:23 PM   #39
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TG Well talked to the Acrylic people, they have no problems with he design, and they will make the acrylic gaskets for all the holes and build them up to 25mm thick of the base.

I'm thinking it might end up costing a bit more now but i think it will be worth it. I'll start my thread when i get it back and take some photos of it. Think i'll put an order into frozencpu to get the other bits i need while i'm waiting.

Hows your enclosure going ?
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Old 06-10-2012, 11:20 PM   #40
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Orthello, I don't think you're going to get good circulation blasting the air into the wall like that. You want to try and create a circular path of airflow. My suggestion would be to raise the rad all the way to the ceiling and have the fans blowing towards the mobo.. the air will return below the rad and up behind it where you have 50mm clearance. You can add turning vanes or just some v shaped insulation wedges to help airflow in the corners.

If for some reason you must have the fans blowing into the wall, I'd then lower the rad to the bottom and put a full 180 degree turning vane so the air can discharge out above the rad.

Nice fans you have there, hopefully that NB-NanoSLI bearing will hold up to the extreme temps. Most ball bearing are good down below -20c. Stay away from sleeved for temps below -10c.

How's it coming TG?

Looking forward to the drawings and pics.
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