First Chiller

[utnorris]

So I am building my first water chiller out of a 5000 BTU A/C and I am looking for some advice. I have read quite a bit of the Drewmeister's sticky and have learned a lot, but I still have a few questions. Any help/advice would be appreciated.

My main goal is to use a chiller to lower water temps below ambient but not to the dew point so I can avoid condensation issues. Here are my questions:

1 - Can I cool the condenser with 120mm fans instead of the loud fan it came with?

2 - After doing a test run just to watch it get frosty, , I noticed the compressor got pretty warm, still touchable, is this normal and should I plan on cooling it with a fan?

3 - It has an external temp monitor that's about 12 inches long, can I seal it in rubber silicone and place it in the water to monitor temps so I can keep it roughly around 15c?

4 - Does it matter if the evaporator is standing up or laying down?

5 - I need to bend some of the pipes in order to get it in a desired location to be able to place in a res, how difficult is it to bend them and do I need a special tool?

Here are some pics and I labeled some of my questions in them:

[Drewmeister]

Hello utnorris.. welcome to EOCF!

1) These a/c chillers have so much capacity that you will only need low fan speed. I highly recommend just adding an SCR type fan speed controller to the stock fan which will most likely be quieter than 4 x 120mm fans. You can get an SCR controller at most hardware stores for about $10. An SCR will be in the form of a ceiling fan controller... do not use a dimmer. Consult with me when adjusting fan speed or if you go with 120mm fans.

2) If you can keep your hand on it for more than 3 seconds it's fine. Three seconds = approx 145-160F for most ppl. Rotary type compressors tend to run hot but for this application I would keep compressor under 80c/176F.

3) Yes.. or 5min JB Weld. Low end will be approx 63F/17c with stock thermostat. May want to consider a nice digital t-stat to extend that range. I normally operate my chiller no warmer than 15c. In the colder months I operate as low as -5c (25% humidity ) with no condensation proofing.

4) I don't think it would matter much for this application.

5) Please post a pic of the reservoir first. A pipe bender might not fit in there. I just use a 1 3/8" pipe to bend with. You have to have strong hands and keep tubing pressed "tightly" against the pipe or else it will fold over/kink. Go slow!


The green wires are ground. Repostion them to the base or condenser so they don't corrode.

You will only need to bend the larger suctiuon(cold) line. Make sure you don't twist or kink any of the lines.. especially the smaller coiled up capilary tube.

No need to cut the fan wires. I recommend you use the original fan with the mentioned SCR speed controller. Keep it simple. You will be surprised how much you can reduce the sound levels.

Thanks for posting this.

[utnorris]

Man am I glad you are still here. I have been reading your thread and you are like the master. I really, really appreciate you taking the time to answer my questions. Ok, so now my updates:

I was able to bend the tubes where they will need to be, the small coiled ones I just took it slow and bent them out and up so I could run the small line attached to the cold line upwards so it would slide into the res. The large cold line I was able to bend it using two pieces of wood and C-clamps, just took my time making sure I didn't kink or crease any of it. Now that is out of the way, I can move on to bigger things. The wires running to the fan and to the compressor I went ahead and cut, I gave myself plenty of room to reattach them, I just wanted the control module out of the way and I wanted to be able to extend the wires. I will check into the SCR tomorrow at Lowes. It would be great if I can use the stock fan, but as of right now it is too loud and one of the reasons I am doing this is to eliminate my rads and fans because of noise. I know, it's water cooling, it can't be that loud, trust me it's enough. Anyway, I really do appreciate the answers, my normal forum kinda gave me the brush off when it came to chillers, guess what I was wanting to do wasn't xtreme enough.

Here are so more pics of my progress:










Also, here is my current setup:

Mountain Mod UF2O w/Pedestal Completed
QX9650 @ 4.2Ghz / Asus Maximus Formula w/Rampage Bios 410 / 4Gb (2x2) G-Skill DDR1000 5-5-5-18 timings / 2 x 150Gb Velicoraptors SATA in RAID 0, 4 x 320Gb SATA in RAID 0 / VisionTek HD4870x2 2GB

W/C System
3 Loops - (CPU) Enzotech Saphhire, TC PA120.3, MCP355 w/XSPC Res Top / (GPU) Koolance HD4870x2 FC, Black Ice XtremeII, MCP355 w/XSPC Res Top / (NB/SB) EK-NB S-MAX Acetal, EK-NB/SB ASUS 4 - Acetal, PA120.1, MCP655 w/EK 5 Top / Koolance NZL-V10KG Compression Fittings. 6 San Denki Fans

Additional Comment:

One more thing, I ran it about 10 minutes and using to external temp sensors, the type you set on your desk, my temps got down to 5c on one and 50F on the other. I suspect the evaporator was colder and that was just the air temp around the temp sensors. She got nice and frosty, . Also, the compressor never went over 90F according to the temp probe on the A/C, I just taped it to the out side and used it to read the temp, so I think I am good there.

Thank for welcoming me to the forums, lots of good stuff here.

Additional Comment:

Here is what I found so far for a res. I couldn't find a cooler, but I am going to check Target and see if they have one that isn't too big that will work. The deminsions are 18" wide and 8 7/8" tall so it will work but barely and it isn't insulated and it will take a lot water to fill it up. I am thinking I can put some spray foam insulation inside to insulate it and take up some of the space. Hopefully I will find a cooler that will work tomorrow and this will be a non issue.

Second thing is the switch. I am thinking the switch goes inline with the red wire which is the high setting and then just reconnect all the other wires. On the switch itself it has two black and a green, green being ground so i just need to connect it to the green/yellow wire of the fan. Here are the pics:

[Drewmeister]

I wouldn't use that container as a reservoir. A rubbermaid 12 can cooler measures approx 4"D x 16"w x 12.25"H internally. You should be able to squeeze that evap in one.

Locate the high speed wire on the fan and wire the speed controller in series. You have to be careful how low you run the fan b/c it will increase the highside pressure. You are going to have to monitor the refrigerant liquid line and compressor temps. You'll have to finish this and get it loaded up first. We'll discuss later.

You really should resize those pics to 1024 x 768 or use the forum's thumbnail attachment feature.

[utnorris]

Pics - no problem.

Wasn't planning on adding anything to the coolant line such as a meter or anything, so if that is going to be an issue I may have to rethink it as it isn't worth having to capture and refill the lines. As far as the res goes I know which one you are talking about and I will check Target tomorrow, otherwise, I may have to order it online.

Thanks.

Additional Comment:

O I am thinking I may take an old cooler I have and cut it out on one side to fit the rad in there. It is like 1/2" off from being able to fit the rad. I would then use rubber silicone to seal it back up. Do you think that will work? Oh, and if you are wondering, I can't find the 12 can cooler locally and I didn't want to get it off line, not to mention I really didn't want to dish out an additional $30 plus shipping for the res.
Thanks

[Drewmeister]

I meant that since you don't have any way of knowing the system pressures that you'll have to go off temperature readings at various points. Another thing you can do is add a pressure switch and or gauge via a piercing valve.. these are easy to install as they don't require any refrigerant recovery or brazing. This will allow you to monitor or possibly set up a simple auto low/high fan speed control.

I wouldn't recommend patching a reservoir together. Just search ebay for this: NEW RUBBERMAID 12 CAN BLUE SLIM COOLER . $19.99

Target's online store has it. Check the camping gear section at local sporting goods stores.

[utnorris]

Cool, will check the local sporting stores and worse case just order it online. Can you give me a little more detail on the valve or how I would monitor temps throughout the system? Would I just use temp sensor probes on the outside of the lines?
Thanks.

[ricecrispi]

Any cooler will do so you can get a slightly larger cooler and everything fits. You can test with larger cooler initially

Reason for cooler is because
1) It is insulated. 2) The plastic used in coolers are much tougher. 3) The type of plastic used in coolers will holder up better with lower temps

[utnorris]

Sweet, thanks for the advice ricecrispi.

Additional Comment:

Yay!!!! I found one locally at Ace Hardware of all places. And it was only $15.49 to boot. Now I can build my case and do some testing. Of course, I need to make sure it fits which I will do tonight when I get home from work.

[Drewmeister]

You should be able to get by with just monitoring the compressor temp and liquid line temp leaving the condenser. Keep this compressor under 80c (50-70c average)and liquid line as close to room temp as possible... warm to slightly hot is usually fine... keep under 43c/110F. You can try the three second rule to tell if compressor is under 60c or if too hot then you'll need a suitable temp probe. Obviously be very careful doing that.. the rotaries can run very hot.

Sorry.. forgot to mention Ace hardware, strange but yes they do have a nice selection of coolers. I get my De-Icer washer fluid there too. The 12 can cooler is probably the smallest cooler available for this application but does hold approx 3 gallons. This will take longer to pulldown but will give longer off time which can be quite lengthy depending on load.

I have a pic around here of a Kenmore 5150 mod I did with the 12 can cooler. I'll post it up asap.

[utnorris]

Originally Posted by Drewmeister

You should be able to get by with just monitoring the compressor temp and liquid line temp leaving the condenser. Keep this compressor under 80c (50-70c average)and liquid line as close to room temp as possible... warm to slightly hot is usually fine... keep under 43c/110F. You can try the three second rule to tell if compressor is under 60c or if too hot then you'll need a suitable temp probe. Obviously be very careful doing that.. the rotaries can run very hot.

Sorry.. forgot to mention Ace hardware, strange but yes they do have a nice selection of coolers. I get my De-Icer washer fluid there too. The 12 can cooler is probably the smallest cooler available for this application but does hold approx 3 gallons. This will take longer to pulldown but will give longer off time which can be quite lengthy depending on load.

I have a pic around here of a Kenmore 5150 mod I did with the 12 can cooler. I'll post it up asap.

Thanks for the explanation, that clears a lot up. I will hopefully be finishing the wiring up tonight when i get off work and I will try to fit the cooler just to get an idea if I need to bend the lines anymore. I really appreciate all the help and explanations, means a lot and if you are ever in Dallas, the drinks are on me.

What would you think about me using temp probes from either my MB or my PSU to monitor those temps? I could use either plain old tape or some silicone to hold it on. That way I could monitor it from Windows.

[Drewmeister]

You're more than welcome.. thanks for posting here.

That temp probe idea you have is amazing. Yes.. I would definitely try that out. You may need shielded wire to extend probes. You could get fancy with this you know.

[utnorris]

Ok, so I have a problem. The 12 can cooler is not deep enough, see the illustration below. I can do one of two things.

1 - Go with the modifications I describe in the illustration. I would fill the cut out with liquid insulation that you use to seal around pipes.
or
2 - Use a slightly larger cooler I already have. It's twice the depth, but not quite as wide, but the evaporator will fit in it. I would still need to cut a little at the top, but then I could fill it in with the cut out part and liquid insulation to seal it. The problem of course is the larger volume of liquid, not a big deal once it has cooled down. I personally think this is the better solution since it involves less cutting of the cooler.


Any suggestions?

[Drewmeister]

Let me know the dimension from the front of evap to suction line. Get me the total width of that evap including the tubing. Does your cooler narrow to 3.5" at the bottom? Could you remove the insulation on the suction and get a top view pic?

The first pic showing dimension I need. I added three pics showing how I bent and fit the evap on a Kenmore 5150 in a 12 can cooler.

[utnorris]

Distance is 5". After looking at yours I am thinking I can bend them to fit. What did you use to bend yours? Do you think using something like a pipe to bend it will work, sort of rolling it?





Additional Comment:

I was in a hurry, so i did not get a top down pic and I really need to get the rest of the insulation off. I will post some more pics tonight, but if you have any ideas, feel free to let me know and I can try them when I get home tonight.
Thanks,

Additional Comment:

Ok, that's not going to work for me. Take a look at where the two pipes coming out meet, I can't bend it there without risking kinking it. If I bend it after the joint, then I may be able to get it in, but then I have to bend all the other points and I risk breaking the pipe since it has already been bent once. Here are some more pics;







Additional Comment:

Hey Drewmeister, can you take one of my pics and show me where to put the temp sensors please? Also, what the temp ranges of those spots I need to be aware of?
Thanks,

Nevermind, figured it out. Thanks.

[Drewmeister]

I think you can make this fit in the 12 can cooler by slightly twisting/bending the lines at an angle... see my l33t photoshopped pic. It would help if you were able to heat the tubes some with a propane torch while bending. There is a sequence to the bending.. if you think it will work LMK and we'll go over it in more detail. There is another way of bending but I think this may be the easiest.

[utnorris]

Ok, so I decided to use a cooler that I originally had already. I didn't think it would fit, but a few minor adjustments and it fits. I got everything rewired and I have started testing. I did a test with no water just to make sure everything was working, which it was. I then used just plain tap water and filled the res as far as I could. Since I have not filled in the hole I could not get it over the top of the evaporator, but only by maybe a half inch. Here are the results, fan was running at high:

Initial water temp - 67f
5 min - 66f
10 min - 61f Compressor turned off since this was the lowest I could set it at.
15 min - 57f
20 min - 56f
25 min - 56f
30 min - 56f

I then pulled the temp probe out of the water and let the compressor run another 10 minutes before shutting it off. After a little over 30 minutes it has settled at 38f. Not quite freezing but close.

Now I do have a few concerns. Some ice formed on the Evaporator in various places. Also, the compressor and one of the lines got hot to the touch. I could hold my fingers to them for 3 seconds (used stop watch). I included some pics so you can see what I am talking about. Also, once the pump cuts off, how long do I need to let the fan run at high? Can I turn it off completely once the condenser cools? Should I put a fan on the compressor and that line that is getting hot? Any other ideas?

What it looks like so far:











These are the spots that get hot:



This is where I saw ice:

[Drewmeister]

The evaporator won't be icing up once submerged and operated above freezing. Use 10-20% antifreeze to prevent corrosion. Seal the hole where the lines go through with silicon.. make a gasket for the top with foam tape or something. Basically try and make the reservoir as airtight as possible to help keep air = moisture and biological growths out.

The condenser fan must always run whenever the compressor runs. The condenser fan can be wired to cycle on and off with the compressor to keep sound levels down.

That's quite a bit of volume of liquid to pulldown. Try and seal the ends of the evaporator to the inside of the cooler so all coolant is forced to flow through the fins.

[utnorris]

What about the temps of the compressor and that one line? Should I worry?

[Drewmeister]

You said the compressor is under approx 60c so that's fine. Are you measuring the liquid line temp at the bottom of the condenser where I outlined it in the pic.. if that's the spot then it should be as close to room temp as possible for max performance. That line can be warm to slighty hot especially during pulldown. Once coolant is pulled down in temp the load will be much less so that line should just be warm to the touch.