Anti-Sieze Compound On Your CPU & Forensic Analysis of Thermal Compounds

[fabinator]

Okay, I realize this may not be the correct place to post this, but I couldn't find a more relevant section. I realize this question was posted here several years ago (did a search for it), but it was never resolved. Here's the answer.

My neighbor was *****ing about his computer being slow a couple weeks ago. After he mentioned he was running a 1.2GHz Duron, I decided to build him another one with some components I had lying around. Only thing is, when I was almost finished, I realized I was out of thermal compound.

While I was putting my helmet on, I tripped on a bottle of anti-seize compound I left in the driveway. Bringing the bottle back inside, I get some of it on my hands... couldn't help but notice how both this stuff and thermal compound are equally difficult to remove. I think for a moment about what both compounds have in common (everything), and determine it's worth a shot. I have a lot of experience figuring out what things are made of, and what they are good for. I have every episode of MacGyver on DVD.

I stir it up, put a tiny bit on the die, and press the heat sink in place to spread it. I take the HS off to make sure I used enough, and it was out to all the corners, with no dry spots. After clamping the HS down, and making final preparations, I finally boot up the computer, install WinXP, and speedfan. To my surprise, the CPU was running cooler than I remember it running the last time I used it (~29 degrees at idle, ~34 under load with F@H). This is a 2.8GHZ Prescott... yeah, the ones that will fry an egg.

To confirm it wasn't a fluke, or that I just didn't remember how hot it ran before, I borrowed a tube of white and silver compound from a friend. The white stuff is some cheap antec crap, the silver stuff is what I normally use... I'm not sure what it is, but it's packaged by manhattan. The white goo came first... ~36 degrees idle, ~42 degrees load. The silver stuff showed better results... ~31-32 idle, ~36 load. The aluminum based anti-seize trumped them both, at least in the short term.

I tried it on my main rig. I run a hyperthreaded 3.2 Prescott @3.57GHz, using a solid copper heat sink, and 6700RPM 90mm fan (fan is set to never go above 65% via speedfan). Both the processor die (well, the copper pad on top of the die) and the heat sink are lapped to a mirror finish. With the silver stuff I normally use, it would run about 32degrees at idle, 38-40 at full load. With the anti seize, idle temp drops three degrees (29-30), load temp doesn't seem to change, but the fan seems to run slower.

I tried it on my video card too. I use a Radeon 3650 (can't figure out how to overclock that one yet). With the factory sekisui tape, it ran screamin' hot at ~40 degrees idle, 48-51 degrees under full load (relative to the rest of my stuff this is hot, it was actually a very acceptable temp I think). With the anti seize, the temp dropped to 33-36 degrees at idle, 42-46 under full load. I'm sure due to the extreme suckyness of sekisui tape, temps would've dropped significantly with any thermal compound, but I haven't had a reason to buy any more. I only got the video card a few days ago, so I haven't messed lapping the heat sink yet... judging by it's construction, it will be difficult.

To sum this up, I would really like to hear what everybody thinks, including the "you're an idiot" opinions. I'm also curious if anyone else has done this, and just simply not told anybody. Perhaps it's a rare connection for anti-seize to ever be in the same room as a computer, but I happen to work on motorcycles for a living, and also be into building my own computers, so I have all sorts of weird crap lying around. There is still the time factor to consider. I did this little experiment three days ago, and I haven't seen a difference in temps yet. I removed the heat sink on my computer to make sure the compound didn't drip all over the place, and it was exactly the same as when I put it in. I also checked the computer I built for my neighbor, and it's the same thing there. Time will tell, but I'm willing to bet it will last.

There is also a copper-based variety. I happen to be out of it at the moment, but I'll get some eventually, and try it on something. I also have a friend in forensics, who is willing to analyze both varieties of anti-seize, and several brands and types of thermal compound. I was thinking about using the generic white paste, the silver stuff I normally use, and whatever the "best of the best" is... as long as it can be had for under 30 bucks.

Additional Comment:

Okay, I purchased and tested the copper based anti-seize. The results were as I predicted, heat transfer was slightly better. Obviously, the biggest difference was with unmodified heat sink and processor surfaces. I tried it on a stock celeronD with a stock cooler, it dropped idle temp 4 degrees, and load temp 9 degrees. With my processor and heat sink (which are both lapped), less than 1 degree drop at idle, still no change at full load. The fan never seems to run above 50% with the aluminum or copper based compounds.

I also got a partial tube of arctic silver 5 from a friend, along with a tube of the cheap silver stuff I used to use. Now that I have all the different compounds to test, My buddy in forensics is going to analyze the compounds tomorrow. I'll get back with the results then.

[kwiksilver]

Very interesting. I still think if properly applied the AS5 will win.
The cheap just is just that CHEAP CRAP.

As for the anti-seize compound that is an interesting find. I wonder how its lasts for the long haul.

[fabinator]

Okay, the results are back from the lab... well, actually I was there the whole time. I just got back from the lab. I have the composition test results, and relative thermal transfer comparisons for all five compounds. the five compounds are described here in order of effectiveness, except for the last two... one will outperform the other depending on what it's applied to.

The "original white paste" is basically thick sunscreen. It's zinc oxide powder in a silicone-based binding agent. It doesn't get any more old school than that.

The "cheap silver stuff" is powdered aluminum (average grain size 2-3 microns across) in an ester-based binding agent. The aluminum powder has better heat transfer properties than zinc oxide, and the lower viscosity binder allows it to fill surface scars better.

The "aluminum anti seize" is very similar. It contains even finer grains of aluminum (0.5-1.5 microns across), and uses a petroleum based grease as a binder. Viscosity is nearly identical to the generic "cheap silver stuff" (won't drip away), and the thermal transfer capacity is much better. Even though the petroleum binder is not the best heat conductor on the planet, it's basically identical to ester-based oil, and better than most silicones.

"Arctic Silver 5" is... you guessed it, silver. It contains about 45% silver by volume, the rest is old fashioned ceramic beads (aluminum oxide, zinc oxide, and boron nitride) averaging about 0.5 microns across. The silver particles themselves are quite unique... there are at least three distinct varieties. One being a flake averaging 1.5-2.5 microns across, one being a grain averaging 0.4-0.7 microns across, and a possible third being a smaller grain around 0.2 microns across (I think this is deposited silver vapor). AS5 uses an ester-based binder, though it's more sophisticated than the generic compound.

The "copper anti-seize" is made from copper flakes averaging 1.5 microns across, and less then 0.2 microns thick. The binder is a synthetic grease, most likely engineered from group III base stock. The copper to binder ratio is extremely high, being over 80% by volume.

CONCLUSION

Arctic silver 5 and the copper anti-seize are the best for different situations. Arctic silver 5 is best for unmodified equipment. The slightly better heat transfer capabilities of the silver make this the compound of choice for scarred or slightly warped surfaces. The low thermal resistance of the silver will effectively make up for less than optimal processor-heat sink contact.
However, for smooth and flat surfaces,the copper anti-seize is the better choice. The copper flakes will pack together better than the silver particles giving better heat transfer when under physical pressure. Since most processors have a copper heat spreader over the die, and heat sinks are made from copper (at best), you won't lose much by using a copper thermal compound. If the processor and heat sink are lapped to an acceptable degree (must be flat in general, a mirror finish wouldn't hurt), the copper anti-seize outperforms the arctic silver 5.

[leprechanmonkie]

i see that is works for the time being and all, but how about the longevity of this stuff?

[rickss69]

Check back in two years...

[thread]

Pretty interesting thread I have to say. As for longevity, you'd expect engine grease to survive heat right?

Additional Comment:

Also, when I read the first few paragraphs I read "anti-freeze" instead of "anti-seize" and I must say I was highly sceptical about the line "I think for a moment about what both compounds have in common (everything)".

[w7bj]

Nice work fabinator. Innovative thought process and good research. Think you could get this moved to the Air Cooling forum? Should cause people who live there to make a beeline for their hardware store in the morning.

[maxgull]

anti-seize is available in copper base nickel base (high temp rating) and we use it at work between band heaters and extrusion barrels. it works well for heat transfer. I am sure that the particle size of the base material is much larger than the particle size in as5 (silver base), weather or not this makes a difference, i dont know. I do know that unless we use the anti seize on the heater bands the life of the band can be greatly shortened. It does transfer heat and is used industrially for this purpose and has been for years. i think the white stuff is zinc oxide. Get the Nickel based anti seize (extremely hi temp) try it and let us know..and thanks in advance McGyver

[fabinator]

Originally Posted by w7bj

Nice work fabinator. Innovative thought process and good research. Think you could get this moved to the Air Cooling forum? Should cause people who live there to make a beeline for their hardware store in the morning.

I'm a noob here, so I don't know how to do that.

Additional Comment:

Originally Posted by maxgull

anti-seize is available in copper base nickel base (high temp rating) and we use it at work between band heaters and extrusion barrels. it works well for heat transfer. I am sure that the particle size of the base material is much larger than the particle size in as5 (silver base), weather or not this makes a difference, i dont know. I do know that unless we use the anti seize on the heater bands the life of the band can be greatly shortened. It does transfer heat and is used industrially for this purpose and has been for years. i think the white stuff is zinc oxide. Get the Nickel based anti seize (extremely hi temp) try it and let us know..and thanks in advance McGyver

The particle size is larger, but still microscopic. It does make a difference on rough surfaces, but on relaticely smooth surfaces, it doesn't really matter. I'll try and find the nickel based stuff.

Additional Comment:

Originally Posted by thread

Pretty interesting thread I have to say. As for longevity, you'd expect engine grease to survive heat right?

Additional Comment:

Also, when I read the first few paragraphs I read "anti-freeze" instead of "anti-seize" and I must say I was highly sceptical about the line "I think for a moment about what both compounds have in common (everything)".

Oh yeah, engines het much hotter than a microchip does... at least at this point in time. The compounds transfer a lot of heat, but the temperature never really gets up that high.

Additional Comment:

Originally Posted by leprechanmonkie

i see that is works for the time being and all, but how about the longevity of this stuff?

At this point, that would be my only concern. I've checked up on mine, and my neighbors yesterday... still no change. The compounds separate on their own in the bottle (especially when kept in a warm place), but in small quantities like the single drop needed on a processor, it doesn't seem to happen.

It would also make sense that any excess binding agent would be squeezed out when the heat sink is clamped down, making separation nearly impossible. Nonetheless, I will continue checking on it.

I'm sure there are also products out there that are better than arctic silver 5, no by no means is the copper anti-seize the best, even though it outperforms the AS5 in one aspect in the short term.

Additional Comment:

Since I still have a usable amount of all compounds left, I will do another test. Since one of two remaining questions is how it stands up to heat (the other being time), I intend to find out.

I happen to be mildly into chemistry. I manufacture certain compounds on a small scale... corrosives to aid in rust removal for my motorcycle hobby, and poison gas to kill roaches at a friend's house. both require controlled heat for their manufacture. I accomplish this with a heating plate that has precise temperature control, within 1 degree Kelvin.

I will use this to test each compound starting at 40 degrees Celsius, slowly increasing to 120 degrees Celsius in 10 degree increments each hour. I will be able to test up to three compounds at once, twice a day... so I should have the results tomorrow evening. I will start now.

I will put the three "standard" compounds in a petri dish with a small piece of glass pressed down in the middle. This should provide some pressure, while removing air, and leaving the squeeze-out exposed to oxygen. I will post results of the three standard compounds tonight, the two anti-seize compounds will be tested tomorrow.

[maxgull]

what i have seen on bolts and heaters is some drying of the suspension fluid (for lack of a better term) to all that seems to be left is the base metal. I am talking about temps reaching 550f, so i dont know what will happen at lower processor type temps. We have a couple of gallons of the stuff here, next processor (q9650 this weekend) wil have a dab on it to test...thanks for your work on this, there is a substantial savings if this works well, and the early results you have posted seem to prove that it does.

[Jason]

Interesting... I know that I've used some bizarre compounds on more than one occasion, usually automotive related products.

Besides the longevity (both in terms of performance, and drying out), how electrically conductive are those "alternatives"?

I rarely use the blister packs that come with cheap heatsinks. Sometimes I'll use the nicer thermal compound that comes with some high-end models if I'm too lazy to dig around for the good stuff I have burred in a drawer.

P.S. I moved the thread & re-titled it.

[maxgull]

i believe all above mentioned is conductive to one degree or another (even as5).

[fabinator]

Well, even though I'm only half way through the heat test, I've determined the "white paste" type of compound fails miserably. The squeeze-out around the glass started turning brown when I turned the heating plate up to 350 Kelvin (slightly under 80 degrees Celsius). This tells me the silicone binding agens reacts with the oxygen in the air when heat is applied. Since processors can get this hot under severe load, and GPU cores seem to be at home in this range, it's just no good.

No change in the "cheap silver stuff" or AS5 yet, they look to be exactly the same as when I started.

Additional Comment:

Originally Posted by Jason

Interesting... I know that I've used some bizarre compounds on more than one occasion, usually automotive related products.

Besides the longevity (both in terms of performance, and drying out), how electrically conductive are those "alternatives"?

I rarely use the blister packs that come with cheap heatsinks. Sometimes I'll use the nicer thermal compound that comes with some high-end models if I'm too lazy to dig around for the good stuff I have burred in a drawer.

P.S. I moved the thread & re-titled it.

With the possible exception of the silicone-based compounds, all are electrically conductive. I expect the both varieties of anti-seize to be highly conductive due to the levels of metals they contain. If properly applied, this should not be a problem, and I was not planning on testing this. However, if somebody thinks it's of concern, I will do this.

I don't expect any of the metallic compounds (be it traditional heat sink compound, or anti-seise) to dry out, but who knows, strange things happen... I wasn't expecting AS5 to actually contain silver, but it does.
The oil-based binders in the anti-seize may seperate from the matallic components under heat, and I'm anxiously awaiting the results too.

The final results of test batch 1 will be ready in a couple hours.

[HAFMaster]

Interesting. I have a 4oz. jar of the copper anti-sieze in my garage.
It's a heck of a lot cheaper than the thermo compound for sure.
I think I have a liftime supply for the next six generations of my family.

[fabinator]

The first test is complete. The "white paste" compound turned into what resembles icing on a birthday cake, almost completely dried out. It was a real pain removing this stuff from the petri dish. The "cheap silver stuff" started letting go of it's binding agent when I turned the heat up to 380 Kelvin, but didn't really go anywhere. The binder never started to burn, so I don't think this would be much of an issue. The AS5 remains unchanged.

I'm starting the test on the two anti-seize compounds now, I will set the heating plate to 320 Kelvin and let the two compounds "simmer" overnight. When I wake up tomorrow, I will start increasing the heat.

[Jason]

Yeah, I've seen the cheap white thermal compound that comes in the blister packs dry out over time.

My concern with thermal conductivity is just kind of a "disclaimer" for people. As always you should clean up any excess and be careful where you apply it. That would be more for situations where people would apply it on a direct-die like a southbridge or GPU.

[StewartTR]

Awesome work! I wouldn't bother with the nickel based stuff as nickel has less than half the thermal contuctivity of Aluminum.

[eligray]

did you know water outperforms all thermal compunds that i know of? (obviously, until it evaporates)

perfect mounts as well

[ShrimpBrime]

I've used dielectric grease for heat sink compound. It was used for sub zero temps with LN. It made a great binder when it froze lol. As for heat, I'd say it is no better than using the white stuff.

Silver is The best metal for heat transfer. The As5 wins I'm sure. To bad silver is so costly. Imagine a Air cooler that was completely made of silver. Pipes fins and all. The cooler sizes would start getting smaller and the As5 would be Perfect.

[eligray]

Originally Posted by ShrimpBrime

I've used dielectric grease for heat sink compound. It was used for sub zero temps with LN. It made a great binder when it froze lol. As for heat, I'd say it is no better than using the white stuff.

Silver is The best metal for heat transfer. The As5 wins I'm sure. To bad silver is so costly. Imagine a Air cooler that was completely made of silver. Pipes fins and all. The cooler sizes would start getting smaller and the As5 would be Perfect.

better yet, make it out of a solid diamond. Scary crazy good heat carrying properties. You could have 10 foot heatpipes that go out your window, lol